25 Comments

1. 

   Paul

    /  July 27, 2010

   the only problem being with your conclusion is that it does not go along with what the bible teaches about eternal torment for the unbeliever. And you make your points of interpretations of verses by wrong interpretations, stating your conclusions not the verses in context. Matt 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Mark 3:29 “but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.” Rev 20:10-15 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
   11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. It is clear by these few verses that there is an eternal judgment awaiting those who do not believe the gospel, just as eternal salvation is everlasting, so eternal torment will also be everlasting. And the mercy that God is showing is to the believer, in that grace is given that He sent His Son to make a way for the ungodly to be reconciled to Him. And His mercy( of withholding what we deserve) is being withheld forever because of His grace, giving us what we do not deserve. All scripture is given by inspiration of God. His mercy does endure forever.

2. 

   Jake

    /  July 29, 2010

   Paul,

   Gary and I in the past would have agreed with all you have said, but we have learned a few things since then, and if you would sit down and actually listen, mabey you can learn these things as we did. Let me ask you a question, but first look at these two verses.

   Rev 20:10-15 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever [Greek: aion] and ever [Gk: aion].

   Eph 2:7 That in the AGES [Gk: aion] to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

   I cannot fathom the possibility of you not questioning the translation of the Greek word aion. Why is it that the translators render ‘aion’ as AGES (FINITE) in some parts of Scripture and in others translate ‘aion’ as FOREVER (INFINITE) in other parts??

   And please don’t go to your Greek dictionary and tell me this word means FINITE in some places and INFINITE in others. A word of wisdom for you: aion ALWAYS means pertaining to one or more ages. BTW did you know in the verse above aion is in the PLURAL?

   Rev 20:10-15 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are.And they will be tormented day and night forever [Greek: aionS] and ever [Gk: aionS].

   Do you even comprehend what that means? If aion can mean both age/ages or forever depending on the context, we know for sure it cannot mean forever in the above verse because both aion(S) are in the plural. The above is a mis-translation. The last time I checked the word “forever” is not in the plural is it? Of course it’s not. The God-inspired infallible word written by the hand of John is “ages of the ages” NOT forever(S) and forever(S).

   Matthew 28:20 I am with you to the END of the [Gk:Aion].

   Because Christ tells us there is an END to the Aion, it absolutely cannot mean everlasting! Hebrews 1:2 tells us that God made the ages [Gk:Aions], and the Apostle Paul tells us that there was a state of existence BEFORE the ages [Gk:Aions] (1 Cor. 2:7) and that the ages [Gk:Aions] will END. (1 Cor. 10:11) Clearly, if something begins and ends, it cannot be unending.

   Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting [Greek: aionion] punishment: but the righteous into eternal [Gk: aionion] life

   Aionion is the adjective of the noun aion, and as such it must mean “that which pertains to ages.” It could be one or many ages, just as the adjective “hourly” pertains to hours. It could be pertaining to only one, but it could also be pertaining to very many hours. But it must pertain to hours, and not weeks, months, or centuries! It is abundantly clear God did NOT inspire this Greek word “Aionion” to mean “everlasting!”

   The adjective of a noun can NEVER under any circumstances take on any contradictory or different meaning from the noun it was derived. Grammatical laws prove this.

   II Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus ‘BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN’ [Greek: pro chronon aionion].

   The King James Bible and its sister translations have not translated these words properly. The word “world” is not found in the Greek manuscripts, the word “began” is not found in the Greek manuscripts. Pro, in these verses is a preposition which means “before.” Chronon is a genitive plural of the noun chronos which means “time.” Aionion is a genitive plural adjective of the noun aion. Please stop and think this section thoroughly through. It may dramatically change your life for the better. The only thing the King James Version got right here was the preposition “before.” The translators of the American Standard and the Revised Version, which are revisions of the King James Bible, realized there were problems in the King James Bible with these words.

   They therefore made a consistent rendering based not upon the Greek, but upon tradition! They translated Titus 1:2 “before times eternal.” Now what is the world is that supposed to mean? How can there be times (plural) before eternity? This is not translation, this is nonsense. But you see, they had to stay true to the tradition of an eternal “hell” in which many people would be “forever” punished. Realizing how ridiculous a literal rendering of this phrase sounded based upon “tradition,” the American Standard translators put in the margin, “or, long ages ago.” Now here is a phrase that makes sense to the Greeks and to the English. Why not put it into the English text, since that is a rendering which is far more true to the Greek and English than “before times eternal?”

   I do want to address another application of aionion because almost everyone gets confused and ends up rejected all the Scriptures I have already presented which prove aionion cannot mean everlasting. People will argue, “Well, if the unjust do not receive eternal punishment than that would mean we don’t have eternal life.” People make this argument because they falsely think the phrase “eonian life” is a statement of LIMITATION which means life will come to an end.

   The next great event in prophecy is not eternity, but rather the END of this eon and the BEGINNING of the next—the one in which the very elect will reign with Christ. There is no sense in jumping into eternity when as yet, we have numerous ages to yet live and administer Gods government and His Great Judgment. And AFTER the consummation of the ages, the elect saints continue to live, not because they were promised “eternal” life, but because they have been resurrected from the dead or changed at our Lords coming, hence they are all given IMMORTALITY! Which means that they will NEVER EVER die, even though they have never been promised “eternal” life by such a name or term.

   The concept of “eternity” is foreign to the Holy Scriptures. There is virtually nothing that is outside of the time periods known as aions. There are just a couple of hints regarding life beyond the ages of time. Luke speaks of things pertaining to the Kingdom, not coming to an end. And Paul tells us that in resurrection we will have “incorruption” and “immortality” signifying “deathlessness,” but neither word has to do with time itself. Paul also speaks of a time in which God will be “ALL in all.” That is the extent to which the Scriptures even hint of eternity or anything beyond the ages of time.

   John 17:3 And this is life eonian [Gk: aionion], that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

   The statement “life eonian” is NOT a statement of LIMITATION, but of FACT. “Eonian Life” has nothing to do with eternity, but rather knowing the One True God, and Jesus Christ during the AGES we now live.

   So when God imparts His life, it is imparted to mortal man who is aionian. In other words, man has been given life which pertains to the ages. This does not mean that the essence of Gods life is somehow temporary (or that God is temporary), it simply means that the life of God is imparted to man who is bound to the ages and who is NOT immortal. Aionion life is that life which is applicable to the ages (time). Immortality is that life which is applicable to the state of death-less-ness.

   I Tim 2:4,6 Who will have ALL MANKIND TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified IN DUE TIME.

   Paul did not lie when he said, “For the creature was made subject to futility, not willingly [Not free will, it was God], but by reason of him who hath subjected in expectation [The next verse tells us why God subjected the whole Creation to futility and his ultimate expectation] , Because the Creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God (Rom 8:20-21).

   John 12:32 For if I be lifted up [on the cross] WILL DRAW ALL MANKIND UNTO MYSELF.

   Most say a person can only accept Christ during this present life, but Paul disagrees. Paul says, “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified IN DUE TIME.” Christ will draw all men unto himself and that will begin when they confess him during their Judgment and bow their knee (Phil 2:10,11).

   Isa 26:9 For when the Earth experiences thy Judgments, the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS.

   The first verse of Revelation tells us the book was SIGNIFIED [SYMBOLIZED] by the angel to John. There are hundreds of symbols in that book. The lake of fire is another subject by itself, BUT whatever it is CANNOT contradict Christ’s words, “For if I be lifted up [on the cross] WILL DRAW ALL MANKIND UNTO MYSELF (John 12:32). Virtually nothing in the book of Revelation is literal.

   And as for the blasphemy of the Spirit I’m going to quote L. Ray Smith. He nails it.

   “Many people speak of the “UNpardonable sin” as thought the Scriptures actually spoke of such a thing. They DO NOT! There is no such thing as an “unpardonable sin” in the Bible.

   Well, then, what about Matt. 12:-31-32? Let’s read it in a proper translation:

   “Therefore I am saying to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men, yet the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be pardoned.”

   It certainly SOUNDS like the blasphemy of God’s spirit is an unpardonable sin, doesn’t it? Let’s continue reading:

   “And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Man, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, [ever? continue reading...] neither in THIS EON [age] nor in that [age] which is IMPENDING.”

   Now then, does it really say this sin is UNPARDONABLE? It is only unpardonable “in this age” and also “in the age to come [the impending age].” So it doesn’t say it will NEVER be pardoned–only in this and the coming age will it NOT be pardoned.

   What about the age AFTER the coming age? Ah, there is the answer. We live in what the Bible calls “this present wicked age.” But the age to come is the ONE THOUSAND year reign of Christ in His kingdom on this earth. The sin against the holy spirit will not be pardoned in either of these two ages. When then? The age AFTER these two ages. After the one thousand year reign of Christ comes the white throne judgment in which ALL the unbelievers of the world will be judged. Judging has to do with setting things RIGHT, not condemning to some fabled hellhole of eternal torture in fire.

   In Rev. 20 and 21 we read of God’s purging lake of fire which will deal with all unbelievers and their sins. There will be many there who have blasphemed the holy spirit. But in that age of judging and setting right, even they will receive pardon and salvation. It is God’s will and desire to save ALL MANKIND (I Tim. 2:4). And God will certain fulfill ALL THAT HE HAS PURPOSED (Isaiah 46:10-11).” End Quote.

3. 

   Jake

    /  July 29, 2010

   http://www.savior-of-all.com/An%20Analytical%20Study%20of%20Words.pdf

   For an in-depth study on the Greek aion/aionion, I suggest the link above. The Book is written by Louis Abbott, “Analytical Study of Words”. And to discuss what the Lake of Fire symbolizes you can email me at Truth281@gmail.com

4. 

   Paul

    /  August 2, 2010

   Let’s take this one at a time and for sure I am not going to go into detail about all that you wrote because if you were to look at the W E Vine’s new testament word dictionary you would find some of what you state is accurate according to him and some of the things that you state are not and that would boil down to which to believe. So I will stay with what the bible says and let the chips fall where they will, the Lord says His word is true from the beginning and will never pass away. And knowing that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God, that is my plumb line and I would hope yours also. The arguments you make for the Greek word(aion) age or ages is used several times and the two you mention early on in Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus ages here speaks of what it says that in the time to follow God will show His grace toward us in Christ Jesus(to be brief). And in Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. Simply is saying that those living earlier were not privy to the revelation that God is then reveling. Self explanatory. Bringing us to the discussion on eternal punishment, let’s look at your proof text and let the verses speak for themselves.
   Rev 20:10-15 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever [Greek: aionS] and ever [Gk: aionS]. Here the word ever(in forever) #165 in the Strong’s concordance states of this word aion from the same as #104 prop. An age; by extens perpetuity (also past) by inpl. The world; spec.(Jewish) a Messianic period present or future) age, course, eternal(for)ever and a few others which you can look up. But you stated that forever is not plural and forget that the word itself means forever. We do not need plural for evers. One forever is enough. Any one on the street can tell you what forever means, it means forever. That was easy. Just like in the verse here in Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. This verse seems simply enough to understand, they will be tormented forever and ever.
   Rev 20: 11-15 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. This clearly states that after the Great White Throne judgment Death and Hades from where the lost will come are also cast into the lake of fire. Then going on down to Chapter 21:7-8 7“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” God goes on to state that the overcomers will be with Him and v8 says the unbelievers and so on have their part in the lake of fire. That is self explanatory and comes after the period that you state in your discourse. You explain your views but not in context.
   You go on to write about the Bible not saying anything about eternity. I don’t know which Bible you are reading but mine speaks many times of eternal (about 45 times) (everlasting 100 times) (forever 382 times) (will not perish 392 times) I think you get my point. It sound like your argument is like that person some time back who was trying to explain what IS means. God is not hiding His wisdom in using words that people cannot understand. Had He meant temporary He could easily have had that word used. A good lesson to apply is to understand the word in context and allow the Holy Spirit to guide your thoughts (Pro 16:3 Commit your works to the Lord, And your thoughts will be established.) And think about this, if what you said about no everlasting judgment was true and that at the last ever person would be saved. Why would anyone in their right mind accept the Lord now and have to go through this life bearing the approach of Christ, you must admit that living the Christian life involves sacrifices and being a good steward. If would be foolish to do all this now when we could wait and receive forgiveness in the end of time. Bud of course, that is no where taught in the word of God, except you repent,Luke13:3, the Lord states that the person will perish. I will stick with what thus says the Lord, hope you will too.

5. 

   Gary

    /  August 2, 2010

   Paul, I only have time right now to comment on a couple of statements you made:

   // God is not hiding His wisdom in using words that people cannot understand. //

   Oh really? Well according to Jesus, that is EXACTLY what God is doing. Why do you think Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables only? I will let Jesus Himself answer:

   “And the disciples came, and said unto Him, WHY speak You unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto YOU [His disciples] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM [the multitudes] IT IS NOT GIVEN. For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

   “And in THEM [the multitudes] is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says, By hearing you shall hear, and shall NOT understand, and seeing you shall see, and shall NOT perceive: For this people’s heart [the people’s heart in Isaiah’s day, in Christ’s day, and throughout all the generations] is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should HEAL [save] them.

   “But blessed are YOUR [His disciples] eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men [all the patriarchs of the Old Testament] have desired to see those things which you see, and have NOT seen them, and to hear those things which you hear, and have NOT heard them” (Matt. 13:10-17).

   So you see, Paul, the reason Jesus spoke in parables was to HIDE the true meaning of the scriptures to all who were not predestined to receive it. For many are called, but FEW are chosen..

   // And think about this, if what you said about no everlasting judgment was true and that at the last every person would be saved. Why would anyone in their right mind accept the Lord now and have to go through this life bearing the approach of Christ, you must admit that living the Christian life involves sacrifices and being a good steward. It would be foolish to do all this now when we could wait and receive forgiveness in the end of time. //

   I think the following parable addresses this type of attitude (which is prevalent throughout the Christian community) quite nicely:

   Matthew 20 (NKJV):
   1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
   2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
   3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
   4 and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went.
   5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise.
   6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’
   7 They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’
   8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’
   9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius.
   10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius.
   11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner,
   12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’
   13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
   14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
   15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? OR IS YOUR EYE EVIL BECAUSE I AM GOOD?’ [emphasis added]
   16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”

   In closing, I want to encourage you to read and study the following document, which was written by the renowned 19th century Greek scholar J.W. Hanson:

   http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

   Study to shew thyself approved. Don’t always put your trust in publications like Vines and Strong’s. After all, Jesus did warn us to beware the leaven [or doctrine] of the Pharisees, didn’t He? Do you think that warning was only for them?

   Peace

6. 

   Paul

    /  August 2, 2010

   Yes that was a reasonable answer, only trouble is I wasn’t talking about parables, but about they answer given concerning what for ever means and about what everlasting and eternal means. There is a big difference. On top of that parables is another reason that proves that all people will not be saved, in your on words they are stated by Jesus for those in the kingdom not the lost, but you say that all will eventually be saved, so who are the parable for? As far as using study aids such as W E Vines, who happens to be known all over the country as a well known authority on Greek and Hebrew words. And you encouraged me not to put a lot of stock in others like that and then you turn around and suggest someone that I could read up on and you say he is a renowned scholar and I never heard of him, but you were familiar with Vines and the Strong’s. I wonder who is most renowned? I will stay with the word, He that believes on the Lord Jesus Christ is saved and he that does not believe is condemned already. Except one repents they shall likewise perish. Have a great day. The just shall live by faith.

7. 

   Paul

    /  August 7, 2010

   And let us look back at the first comments that were made about God’s mercy enduring for ever, which for your example you use the Strong’s to support your intent. And I also find it to be very reliable and so do hundreds of thousand others. But talking about God’s mercy enduring forever in the bible is never speaking about His mercy enduring forever to a lost individual. Mercy is punishment that is deserved that He is withholding from the person that deserves it. Ex 15:3 You in Your mercy have led forth The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength To Your holy habitation. Ex20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Deut 5:9-10 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Notice the contract in these two and in the other two verses mentioned, the wicked are not included in the mercy which God shows toward His redeemed which is forever. I am sure that if you will run a study on this word for Gods mercy you will find in the Strong’s that the word for mercy is used282 times, although many times it is used in the verses not as speaking of God’s mercy but mercy extended in a different manor. Such as Deut 7:2 “and when the Lord your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them, here the Lord says to show these enemies no mercy. I will leave it to you how many verses you want to review, and I would say this, please feel free to send me any verse which will show that the mercy of the Lord is ever used speaking to someone that remains in an unregenerate condition. Jude 12-13 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. Notice this is one of many that declares that those like these will have their share in the darkness forever. As in Rev 21:5-8 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” 6And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Just as those in Jude 12 were spoken of as being twice dead, these here in the last phrase face the second death which is clearly explained in Rev 20:11-15 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. You can try to explain these verses away but God throughout the inspired word repeat these warnings of eternal judgment. Unless you are purposely trying to deceive others, which I don’t really think is your purpose, you have to try very hard to explain away their many references. It is my desire as well as the Lords that you rightly divide the word of God and when the passage reads eternal, everlasting, forever, don’t forget that if the Lord had wanted to say temporary He would have had that inserted in the passage. The Lord has put within my heart the same desire he had when Jesus Himself said, except a person repents, he or she will likewise perish. Have a great Lords day. Phil 2:13

8. 

   Gary

    /  August 7, 2010

   Sorry, Paul, but I was being disingenuous when I called J.W. Hanson a “renowned” scholar. Of course his writings are not as well known as Strongs or Vines. But why do you think that is? Do you think it might have something to do with the fact that those who dare to speak a message contrary to popular opinion are often demonized and discredited by the majority? Of course they are. It works that way in both the political AND the religious world:

   “For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” But wisdom is proved right by her actions.” (Matt 11:18-19)

   But the mere fact that you are unwilling to take the time to read what this man has written says volumes about you. A Christian is guided by truth and facts, not emotions and majority opinion. Here is wisdom:

   “The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him.” (Pro 18:17)

   But Hanson is not alone. There are MANY reputable scholars who say the same thing. Smith’s Bible Dictionary also renders “everlasting” as “age-lasting.” Robert Young of “Young’s Analytical Concordance” fame has also written that “everlasting” really means “age-enduring.” In fact, Robert Young’s Literal Translation only uses the word “everlasting” one time in the entire Bible (Jude 6). But here, as well as in Romans 1:20 (which he renders “eternal”), an entirely different Greek word (aidios) is used. In fact, these are the only two places in the entire Greek NT where aidios is found. The only other place in the Bible where Young uses the word “eternal” is Deuteronomy 33:27. You can look up the reference yourself (H6924).

   And since you are so hung up on the lake of fire, I will share with you what Charles Pridgeon in his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE has written:

   “The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word ‘brimstone’ or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated ‘brimstone’ is exactly the same word THEION which means ‘divine.’ Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer’s Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a ‘lake of fire and brimstone’ would mean a ‘lake of divine purification.’ The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it.”

   Malachi 3:2-6 also describes our Lord as a refining and purifying fire on Judgment Day. This agrees with I Cor 3:11-15. The wood, hay, and stubble (the sinful qualities) are consumed, leaving only the gold, silver, and precious gems (the Christ-like qualities). The purpose of the fire is to SAVE the man, not torture him for all eternity. And according to Jesus Himself, EVERYONE (including Christians) will be salted with fire (Mark 9:49).

   The main problem with your belief system, Paul, is that it is contrary to the will of the Father. God DESIRES to save all men, does He not [I Tim 2:4; II Pet 3:9]? So what part of “God DOES whatever His soul desires” do you not understand [Job 23:13; Isa 46:10-11; Dan 4:35; Eph 1:11; etc]? Also, Jesus came both to seek and to SAVE that which was lost [Luke 19:10]. The mere fact that you deny that this will ever happen makes God and His Christ out to be a failure, in spite of the fact that “love NEVER fails.” And your belief that there will never be forgiveness for most of humanity makes God out to be a hypocrite as well. Here we have a God who commands us to love and to forgive our enemies, yet He Himself will NOT forgive His, but instead will torture them unmercifully is some subterranean hellhole for all eternity? You would do well to reconsider:

   “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES [Gk: POIEO: perform, agree, abide] the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” (Matt 7:21-23)

   Do you AGREE that the Father’s will WILL be done, Paul? No, you don’t. Do you ABIDE in this truth? Again, no. Hence the stern warning..

   Peace

9. 

   Paul

    /  August 7, 2010

   To sum up your last statement, why is there such a stern warning if at the end someone in that state will be saved anyway? Seems to be senseless! Even the verses you use such as Matt 7:21-23 state that not everyone who says Lord, Lord will be saved. Time will tell, I am resting in righteousness of Christ and His word, he that has the Son has life, and he that has not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

10. 

    Gary

     /  August 8, 2010

    // Even the verses you use such as Matt 7:21-23 state that not everyone who says Lord, Lord will be saved. //

    No, that’s not what Christ said at all. Let’s read it again:

    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ SHALL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN”

    It doesn’t say “SHALL BE SAVED” does it? Is there a difference? Absolutely! The “kingdom of heaven” Christ is speaking of is the 1000 year millennial reign. Only the true saints, who worship God in Spirit and in Truth, will inherit this kingdom. John explains:

    “And I saw thrones, and they [the saints] sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them [the saints - see I Cor 6:2]: and I saw the souls of them [the saints] that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they [the saints] lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years… This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev 20:4,5b,6)

    You see, Paul, the first resurrection takes place BEFORE the thousand year kingdom, but the second resurrection does not take place until AFTER the thousand year kingdom:

    “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” (v 5a)

    First resurrection = narrow road = way of life = kingdom inheritance
    Second resurrection = wide road = way of death = no kingdom inheritance

    So it is very true that the ungodly will not inherit this kingdom, but they ARE made alive and saved afterward, just as John prophesies. And no, this kingdom is not an eternal one. This is verified for us three times in Rev 20:

    1) … till the thousand years should be fulfilled (v 3)
    2) … until the thousand years were finished (v 5)
    3) … and when the thousand years are expired (v 7)

    The apostle Paul also explains that there is coming a time when Christ will deliver up His kingdom unto His Father (Cor 15:24). So even the kingdom of Christ is not “eternal” but “aionian” (age-enduring), which is what the Greek really implies. This would be so clear if the King James had not erroneously translated “aionios” as “everlasting.” Which brings us to another point. John says in verse 5 that those who do not inherit the thousand year kingdom are DEAD. Now, if “death = separation apart from God” as many theologians teach, then this “death” cannot be an eternal state for John clearly says that they WILL LIVE AGAIN (after the 1000 years). But if “death” is really an unconscious state of existence, which is what the scriptures clearly teach (Psa 146:4; Ecc 9:3-10; Dan 12:2; etc), then they can’t be suffering “eternal conscious punishment” in hell right now, can they?

    Oh, and btw: the warning in Matthew 7:21-23 is for BELIEVERS, not unbelievers. Do the heathen prophesy in Christ’s name? No. Do the heathen cast out demons in Christ’s name? Again, no. Do the heathen do “many wonderful works” in Christ’s name? Of course they don’t. Why would they do anything in the name of someone in whom they do not believe? They wouldn’t – and don’t. But they are unable to believe, not because of their stubborn “free will,” but because the Spirit is not drawing them to Christ at this particular time (see John 6:44). But one Day Christ will draw ALL MEN unto Himself, just as He said (see John 12:32). So in whom should we believe: Jesus, who says that He will draw all men unto Him, or Christian theologians, who teach that He will cast most men away? My Bible convinces me of the former, for EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue shall confess Christ. And it is with the tongue that confession is made unto salvation (Rom 10:10). Then the whole earth will truly be filled with the knowledge of the Lord. This is the GOOD news!

    Peace

11. 

    Paul

     /  August 8, 2010

    You state that the kingdom of heaven is the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, and that will be a time when Jesus rules on earth, but in Luke 17:20-21 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21“nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you. Jesus states here that His kingdom is not of this world but is within the believer. When a person receives Jesus as their savior Holy Spirit comes to live within the believer and writes the will of God upon the heart of that person and then we have a new desire to do the will of God, where there is a king this implies that there must be a kingdom. John 18:36 speaks of this also, Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here. You state correctly that those(the saints) will be in the first resurrection and you even enclose the statement that the second death will have no power over them. And then you neglect to say or include you the second death has an effect upon. Lets look at those verses and see what God says. Rev 20:6-10 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
    7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Rev20:11-15 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Now reading on from where you stopped we see what the bible says, v10 here states that the devil, the beast and the false prophet are cast into the the lake of fire and brimstone. And then the great white throne judgment and then the 2nd resurrection in which the unsaved are raised, those whom even you say were not in the first resurrection and they were judged(v13) then in v14 death and hades were cast into the lake of fire and this is the 2nd death and v15 says anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. The Lord already stated that the Devil and his crew was cast into the lake of fire so we know they are not the ones here being judged and then cast there also. You seem to have a way of reading part of the passages that fit your interpretation but you fail to read and include the whole passage into your interpretations. And your closing conclusion that every tongue that confesses Jesus Christ is Lord is saved, in itself is not true. James wrote in 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! The bible has many verses saying that some confess as Lord but their hearts are far from Him. The demons cast out of the swine even acknowledged that they knew who He was. No where in the bible does it say that someone after death has the chance to repent, Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, this clearly is stated, find me one verse that says contrary to this, and do not include those that you must read into it. You have done that many times in your other answers but each of those conclusions you state that conclusion but it is not in the passage. If someone were out in the wilderness and just read their bible to discover salvation, they would not come up with your conclusions because you would not be there to instruct them. The bible is the word of God. We must read it for what He said and not for what we want it to say. Ps 119:9 How can a young man cleanse his way?
    By taking heed according to Your word. I find it helps to read the black print on the pages and not between the lines. John 1:12.

12. 

    Gary

     /  August 9, 2010

    I will take the time to respond to a few more of your comments:

    // Jesus states here that His kingdom is not of this world but is within the believer. //

    This is only partially true. That is where the kingdom BEGINS – within the heart of the believer. But it eventually will, as nearly all of the OT prophets have stated, fill the whole earth. Here is one:

    “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” (Hab 2:14)

    Or take the parable of the mustard seed, which is also speaking of the ongoing expansion of the kingdom of God:

    “And He said, ‘How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it? ‘It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil, yet when it is sown, grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and forms large branches; so that the birds of the air can nest under its shade.’” (Mark 4:30-32; NASB)

    The main central truth this parable is attempting to teach is how the kingdom will develop from the smallest of beginnings (within the heart of the believer) into something that will be greater than anyone could have imagined from the outset.

    // When a person receives Jesus as their savior Holy Spirit comes to live within the believer and writes the will of God upon the heart of that person… //

    And I already showed you the scriptures stating what the will of God IS, which you are still having a hard time accepting, because you are blinded by your pagan “eternal torment in hell” doctrine. So God has apparently NOT written His will upon your heart..

    “Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, this people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. ” (Matt 15:7-9;6b)

    “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto FABLES.” (2 Tim 4:2-4)

    // The Lord already stated that the Devil and his crew was cast into the lake of fire so we know they are not the ones here being judged and then cast there also. //

    Paul, the book of Revelation is a series of visions that John recorded for us. But he did NOT write them in chronological order. This is very easy to prove, for he has Christ returning way back in Chapter ELEVEN!

    “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.’” (v 15)

    Further verification that the kingdoms of THIS world will one day belong to our Lord and His Christ..

    // And your closing conclusion that every tongue that confesses Jesus Christ is Lord is saved, in itself is not true. //

    Depends upon which salvation you are talking about. While it is true that not everyone will accept the true gospel and be saved in THIS age (attain to the first resurrection), everyone will be saved when the kingdom age comes to a close (in the second resurrection).

    “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” (John 10:16)

    If everyone is NOT saved, as fundamentalism teaches, then God lied when He said that He would do ALL that His soul desires:

    “But He is unique and who can turn Him? And what His soul desires, that He does.” (Job 23:13; NASB)

    “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.” (Isa 46:10-11)

    You can’t have it both ways, Paul..

    // No where in the bible does it say that someone after death has the chance to repent //

    You’re right, Paul. But repentance involves a whole lot more than responding to altar call during Sunday morning church service, reciting a “sinner’s prayer” and getting baptized.

    “Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?” (Rom 2:4)

    If you knew how good God really is then perhaps even YOU would repent. “Or is your eye [STILL] evil because I am good (Matt 20:15)? If you really knew true repentance, then you would do as the apostle Paul did: forsake your religious orthodoxy and consider it as DUNG to win Christ. As Jesus said, unless you forsake all that you have, you cannot be His disciple. And you will remain a disciple of whatever religious sect you are a part of until you do.

    // And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, this clearly is stated //

    Right. And what is the purpose for judgment, to send the majority of humanity into a raging inferno for all eternity? I will allow Isaiah to set the record straight:

    “For when Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.” (26:9b)

    There is is: Christ’s judgments are to CORRECT humanity and TEACH them righteousness. Or do you think this is too big of a task for God, that His creation is beyond correction?

    Peace

13. 

    Paul

     /  August 9, 2010

    Before I get into your new post, I am still waiting for your response to the mercy that endures to all generations statement. I take it you have not found any verses that state that those apply to the lost, now or forever. You have a way of not answering the questions that I have ask you to show proof text for your answers. You do come back with verses but none that state that my objections are wrong, but statement that you imply prove them to be wrong. Just as you are taking Phil 2:9-11 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father to prove that because everyone should confess Jesus is Lord to go along with your everyone will be saved theory. God did send His Son into the world that everyone could be saved by faith in Him but not everyone does so and God clearly states that in 2Thess 1:8-10 8in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. Notice here in v9 what happens to those who obey not the truth of the gospel– These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory and before you try to explain away everlasting remember this is the same word used as in Rom16:26 6but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith. The exact same word is used of the everlasting God and don’t try to separate the meaning that God is everlasting but the destruction is only temporary. And if you would break out your concordance you will find that the words for eternal and everlasting and forever are from the same Greek word which is #166 in Strong’s. Same in Matt 25: 41and46 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 45-46 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The exact same word which speaks of the everlasting God and everlasting punishment and eternal life must be the same meaning in the same verses. Swallow hard and accept the truth. Just as it says and will only state this last time in Rev 205-6 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. This is after the 1000 year reign the saved have been through the 1000 years and now in 7-10 7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. The devil and his unholy trinity are cast into the lake of fire and then( not out of order but following) 11-15 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. The resurrection of the dead(the non-believers who have died) are raised and judged and then according to the V15 are cast into the lake of fire. And then it stated this is the second death. Speaking of eternal separation from God. And then on down a little further but in sequence Rev21:1-9 Chapter 21
    1Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4“And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” 5Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” 6And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Notice in v8 that those mentioned have their part in the lake of fire which is the second death. These events are clearly stated in the word of God and in their proper order, you may not accept it but that will one day be made clear. I am hoping that this may be used, if not for your understanding but if someone that is seeking to know the truth will simply look up these and other passages in the bible and allow the Holy Spirit to teach them His truths. The best way to learn is to rely on the Lord for as Pro2:6-13 says; 6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;8 He guards the paths of justice, And preserves the way of His saints.9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice, Equity and every good path.10 When wisdom enters your heart, And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,11 Discretion will preserve you; Understanding will keep you,2 To deliver you from the way of evil, From the man who speaks perverse things13 From those who leave the paths of uprightness To walk in the ways of darkness.
    O yes you spoke of which salvation I was talking about in your last reply. Show me 1 verse where the bible speaks of two different salvation which pertain to eternal life. The word sometimes is used to speak of a deliverance from a trouble or an enemy, but never of another salvation from the wages of sin. Isa 26:3

14. 

    Gary

     /  August 10, 2010

    I explained the mercy thing in my original article, Paul.

    // You have a way of not answering the questions that I have ask you to show proof text for your answers. //

    Ditto.. And I’m still waiting for you to explain to me how:

    a) if it’s God’s will to save all men, and
    b) God is working ALL things after the counsel of His own will, then
    c) why doesn’t this include the salvation of all men?

    If you are right, then it would have been more accurate to say that God is working SOME things after the counsel of His own will. I guess the apostle Paul wasn’t hearing from the Holy Spirit very clearly the day he penned those words. And not only Paul, but Job, Isaiah, Daniel, and many others dropped the ball as well..

    // Notice here in v9 what happens to those who obey not the truth of the gospel– These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord //

    Well if that’s the case, then you will be among those who are punished with everlasting destruction, because you sure don’t obey the gospel. In fact, you don’t even KNOW the gospel. The word “gospel” as you know means “good news”, or literally “glad tidings.” Would you care to explain to me how billions of lost souls suffering eternal torment in literal fire is GOOD news??

    // The exact same word which speaks of the everlasting God and everlasting punishment and eternal life must be the same meaning in the same verses. //

    No, it still means age-enduring. A man does not endure (or live) for the ages. But unlike a puny man, God DOES endure for the ages, hence He is unique. But nowhere does this imply that God will cease to be when the ages end. Only fundamentalists like you make weak arguments like this to try and prove that aionios must mean everlasting. It doesn’t. An aion is an AGE. So the adjective form MUST be speaking of that which applies to AGES. But you continue to twist the basic laws of grammar, along with the scriptures, to your own destruction. And again, I know what the concordances say. But I also know that they have been intentionally leavened with the leaven of the Pharisees to support a doctrine that has been very profitable for organized religion. In fact, Vines even supports the unscriptural “immortality of the soul” doctrine, which has it’s roots in (pagan) ancient Egyptian mystery religions.

    // “And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” //

    This verse refutes your belief that there will be eternal tears, death, sorrow, crying, and pain. Don’t you fundies teach that “death” = “eternal separation from God”? So logically, if there is “no more death,” then there can be “no more separation from God.” Isaiah says the same thing:

    “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.” (25:8)

    Say, did you catch that? “The Lord GOD will wipe tears from off ALL FACES. That’s ALL FACES, Paul. Do you know what the meaning of “ALL” is? I’m guessing you don’t.. Also, the apostle Paul sees ahead to a time when God will be ALL in ALL (I Cor 15:28). This contradicts the heretical teaching that there will be those who are eternally “separated apart” from Him.

    // Show me 1 verse where the bible speaks of two different salvation which pertain to eternal life. //

    Believe it or not, Paul, Jesus never promised anyone eternal life. The life He promised His faithful followers was the abundant, age-enduring life which would be theirs at the time of the first resurrection. During the kingdom age, you either have age-enduring life or age-enduring death, for the latter will not see life until the 1000 years is finished.

    *And I can show you several scriptures which say that all mankind will be saved:

    Psalm 86:9
    Isaiah 25:6-9; 26:9; 45:23
    Luke 3:6; 19:10
    John 12:32
    Romans 5:18,19
    I Corinthians 15:22-28
    II Corinthians 5:18,19
    Ephesians 1:10
    Philippians 2:9-11
    Colossians 1:19,20
    I Timothy 2:3-6; 4:9-11
    Hebrews 2:8-11
    I John 2:2
    Revelation 21:3,4

    To name just a few..

    Peace

15. 

    Jessop

     /  October 19, 2010

    Hi Gary,
    I am still here but have been busy with other things.

    Once again, what you say is what we would like to believe but you still have not countered every possible objection, which makes it subjective and not objective as it needs to be. I will show a few places.

    “Now those who wish to promote the doctrine of endless punishment will have a hard time explaining how God’s mercy can endure “forever” while at the same time teaching that there will come a time when God’s mercy toward the unrepentant sinner will cease. It appears as though we have a contradiction.”

    Response:
    The Calvinist would argue that God’s mercy which endures for ever is directed only at the Elect of God who are predestined for eternal bliss. In that case, there is no contradiction.

    “In Revelation 20:14 the lake of fire is referred to as the “second death.” Revelation 21:4 triumphantly declares that “there shall be no more death!” This “lake of fire,” upon which fundamentalist Christianity builds so much, CANNOT be an eternal place of punishment, for God’s Word emphatically declares that ALL “death” will come to an end!”

    Response:
    The first death refers to the death of the body, the second death refers to the final state of the soul (in the Garden Adam died spiritually but still lived on in the body). Refer: “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”. (Matthew 10:28). The action in Revelation 21 takes place on earth under the rule of Christ in the millennium where (some) people inhabit bodies. Those who make it there will no longer be subject to physical death, something which is for those ‘who have overcome’. The fate of those who haven’t overcome supposedly has been sealed before that. Revelation is a difficult book, not to be written off but hard to understand. For example, to me the history of the Universe is taken through to the end of chapter 20 after which Revelation 21 and 22 seem to revert back to the thousand year rule of Christ rather that to the ultimate end when Christ has handed all things over the the Father. The thousand year reign itself is something one has to get one’s mind around because there will be two types of persons living at that time, those in resurrected spiritual bodies like Christ’s, and those in fleshly bodies like ours today. It is a mystery but we are called upon to believe it, and I do.

    ““The reign of Christ is so beneficient, it brings mankind to such a state of perfection, that all further need of the restraints of government vanishes.Rule implies insubordination, and is unnecessary where there is perfect subjection. Rule is a temporary expedient to cope with evil. When evil is banished rule also retires. The effects of evil for mankind are concentrated in death. When the universe has been purged of all other evil, then death itself becomes inoperative and yields up its victims. Not till then is it true that all are made alive in Christ.” — Concordant Commentary on the New Testament.”"

    Response:
    All being made alive in Christ is for resurrection for judgement, but that is not the end of the story because somethings continue after the judgement. Yes, we have a view on that but a view is not proof if it fails to answer all contrary ideas.

    “”This, my friends, is the only logical and reasonable explanation of why God’s punishment AND His mercy BOTH cease at the end of the ages, while at the same time allowing for God’s will to “have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth!” (I Timothy 2:4 – KJV)”

    Response:
    You have proved nothing here in a passage which is subjectively and emotive. The quotation is incomplete. It is preceded by the exhortation to prayer in order that it might be caused to happen, and followed by the objective of the saved persons coming to the knowledge of the truth. We are not told what will happen to those who are saved and do not come to the knowledge of the truth. We also do not know if the ‘will’ attributed to God is a statement of desire or of fixed intention of what he will do.

    So, Gary, while Ultimate Reconciliation is an attraction idea, we still have some work in countering all possible objections to it. Otherwise we may be guilty of misleading many people, something that Søren Kierkegaard sees in misapplied soft Protestant Christianity and condemns in the strongest terms.

    Best regards,

    Jessop.
    P.S. You have the power to delete and ignore this and any further comment from me and carry on with your mission. Over to you, I shall not take offense in any way.

    “I will both lay me down in peace,
    and sleep: for thou, LORD,
    only makest me dwell in safety.”
    (Psalms 4:8).

    http://jessop.wordpress.com/

16. 

    Gary

     /  October 23, 2010

    // The Calvinist would argue that God’s mercy which endures for ever is directed only at the Elect of God who are predestined for eternal bliss. In that case, there is no contradiction. //

    I only need to cite one verse of scripture to refute this Calvinist heresy:

    “For the Son of man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” (Luke 19:10)

    A Calvinist should have a hard time convincing you or anyone else that the non-elect are not “lost.” Ergo, their doctrine that Jesus *only* came to save the elect is clearly refuted.

    The main problem Calvinists (and most all Christians in general) have in understanding the scriptures is the mistranslation of the Greek word aionios, which, contrary to popular belief, does NOT mean everlasting, eternal, forever, etc. The noun AION means AGE, a period of time with both a beginning and an end. Therefore, the adjective form can only refer to that which is applicable to AGES. I agree with the Calvinist that the elect of God are predestined to rule and reign with Christ (Rev 20:4-6). But their rulership only lasts as long as the millennial kingdom age does, after which Christ abolishes all rule (I Cor 15:24). I already explained all of this in my commentary to “Paul” following the Mercy article so I won’t repeat it here. But if you really want to do a serious study of the word aion/aionios I strongly recommend the following articles. They are very long but well worth the time for any seeker of truth:

    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
    http://www.savior-of-all.com/An%20Analytical%20Study%20of%20Words.pdf
    http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity
    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

    // (in the Garden Adam died spiritually but still lived on in the body) //

    Since I do not believe Christianity’s “fall of man” tale, I likewise do not believe that Adam died “spiritually” in the garden parable. His death was a physical one, plain and simple.

    http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/2010/04/a-sure-foundation/
    http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/2010/04/the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil/
    http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/2010/04/does-a-“day”-always-mean-a-literal-day/

    Man was from the very beginning born dead in trespasses and sins. The creature (man) was made (created) “subject to vanity”. And if you’re not sure whether or not the “creature” mentioned in Romans 8:20 is referring to man, I highly recommend that you reread the book of Ecclesiates.

    // The first death refers to the death of the body, the second death refers to the final state of the soul. //

    And where do you think the soul “goes” when the body dies?

    // We are not told what will happen to those who are saved and do not come to the knowledge of the truth. We also do not know if the ‘will’ attributed to God is a statement of desire or of fixed intention of what he will do. //

    I guess what we have to do, then, is find scripture which supports the idea that God’s will = God’s desire or fixed intention. Can we do that?

    “But He is unique and who can turn Him? AND WHAT HIS SOUL DESIRES, THAT HE DOES.” (Job 23:13)

    “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I HAVE SPOKEN IT, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT.” (Isa 46:10-11)

    “All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; HE DOES ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?” (Dan 4:35)

    [emphasis in CAPS are mine]

    // So, Gary, while Ultimate Reconciliation is an attraction idea, we still have some work in countering all possible objections to it. Otherwise we may be guilty of misleading many people, something that Søren Kierkegaard sees in misapplied soft Protestant Christianity and condemns in the strongest terms. //

    Jessop, as long as we are a part of this present wicked age there are going to be objections to the idea of universal reconciliation, especially when it is the doctrine that is the least commonly taught one. But please keep in mind that Jesus Himself said that the way to aionion (age-enduring) life is narrow, and there are FEW who find it. It is not my job to convince you or anyone else of universal reconciliation; that is reserved for the Holy Spirit. But it IS my job to proclaim this gospel unto the nations. And I am confident that His word will go forth and not return unto Him null and void.

    “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.” (John 10:3)

    Peace

17. 

    austin

     /  December 22, 2011

    I just spent a couple of hours reading through this entire post and comments. This has taken me on an emotional up and down, on whether or not hell was eternal. Seeing the different proofs and rebukes, I wanted for it SO badly to be true as I was reading. If it is true that hell is not eternal, and I AM trusting that God will reveal this to me, then this will be the best news that I have ever heard; this will amplify the meaning of gospel tenfold! I fully trust in God and his perfect plan either way.

    Love you bro’s,
    Austin

18. 

    Shauna Delzingaro

     /  February 19, 2012

    So as I see it Christ either made the payment or he did not. If Christ made the payment (death not eternal torment or he would STILL be paying it) then it IS by grace we are saved. It is NOT of ourselves.

    The message that most churches teach is that yes Jesus paid the payment, but WE still have to decide for ourselves (it IS NOT finished). So the churches gospel is NOT that Jesus is our Savior but that WE SAVE OUR SELVES. We either send our selves to heaven or eternal torment based wholly on OUR decision. This false gospel and pastors unwillingness to look at scriptures with me on the topic is what has kept me and my family out of church.

    The church gospel is not truth or good news. Let God be God in all his might power and glory.

19. 

    Shauna Delzingaro

     /  February 19, 2012

    One more thing if anyone ever looks at this thread again, can someone help me place the ” some are beaten with few stripes and some with many” ? When does this occur and what is it about? How does it fit with eternal torment?

    Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

    Also what are the leaves for the healing of the nations about in the end of Revelation? If the unrepentant sinners the church warns about are all in eternal torment in hell, what nations are we talking about? I am not a scholar, but I can not make the eternal torment argument fly from multiple angles. I read the whole bible trying to prove my dad wrong when he approached me with the thought that all may be saved. It was a humbling experience and my eyes were opened. I am so grateful.

20. 

    Gary

     /  February 20, 2012

    Well said, Shauna. I made the exact same point in part 6 of my Genesis series The Number Of Man: http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/2010/04/the-number-of-man/

21. 

    Gary

     /  February 20, 2012

    Thank you for your questions, Shauna.

    (1) Since eternal torment is a fable, these passages in Luke can only be describing varying degrees of corrective discipline for:

    a) Believers: those who know the Lord’s will but do not according to His will (v.47).
    b) Unbelievers: those who know not (v.48).

    Believers who do not according to God’s will are in reality idolaters, mentioned here in Matt 7:

    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Now the Greek word rendered as doeth here in the KJV is poieo (G4160), which basically means to perform, agree, or abide. Now most believers know that it is God’s will to save all men (Calvinism may be the lone exception), but FEW agree that God’s will concerning His desire to save all men shall be done. Therefore..

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Are there any other scriptures to indicate that false believers will be judged more severely than unbelievers?

    “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.” (Matt 23:14; NKJV)

    How about Revelation 18 (NLT):

    4 Then I heard another voice calling from heaven,

    “Come away from her, my people.
    Do not take part in her sins,
    or you will be punished with her.
    5 For her sins are piled as high as heaven,
    and God remembers her evil deeds.
    6 Do to her as she has done to others.
    Double her penalty for all her evil deeds.
    She brewed a cup of terror for others,

    (eternal torment?)

    so brew twice as much for her.
    7 She glorified herself and lived in luxury,
    so match it now with torment and sorrow.
    She boasted in her heart,
    ‘I am queen on my throne.
    I am no helpless widow,
    and I have no reason to mourn.’
    8 Therefore, these plagues will overtake her in a single day—
    death and mourning and famine.
    She will be completely consumed by fire,
    for the Lord God who judges her is mighty.”

    (2) I believe “leaves” is a symbol for “saints” who sprout forth from the Tree of Life: Christ (He is the Vine and the saints are His branches: John 15:15). I also believe that since they will by definition be PRIESTS of God and Christ (Rev 20:6), it will be their function to provide healing for the nations during the millennium. What all this entails I really don’t know. What I DO know is that the whole creation eagerly awaits their arrival (Rom 8:19).

    See the comment thread here for further clarification:
    http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/2010/04/genesis-reloaded/

    Peace

22. 

    Steve

     /  February 28, 2012

    I believe that if even if we are now living in the 1000 year kingdom it is still possible that there are more ages to come.

    Even if the next age is the consummation, whose to say it’s static and can’t include more dispensations? Does the growth and progression of man, and the plans of God, cease at the consummation, or are there always new periods of learning and exploration, which may qualify as ages? Cannot ages go on indefinitely in the mind of a meticulously organized God who does everything according to a certain order, time, and plan?

    In other words, do ages necessarily cease when God becomes all in all? I don’t see why they would have to. Peace.

23. 

    Gary

     /  February 28, 2012

    Most everything in Revelation is written in symbolic language, so the phrase “1000 years” does not necessarily imply that the kingdom will be exactly 1000 years long as some literalists suggest. It could be symbolic of a much longer period of time. And there could even be a succession of ages within this symbolic “1000 year” time frame. In Ephesians 2:7 Paul does mention AGES yet to come, so there are probably going to be at least two more ages. But then again, Paul may have been writing metaphorically as well, so I really don’t know. But I do believe that after everyone is born of the Spirit and becomes one with God, then time and space will cease to exist. My thinking is that if God Himself is not bound by time and space, and we have all become one with Him, then it only stands to reason that we will no longer be bound by time and space either. We will be as free as the wind:

    “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8)

24. 

    Steve

     /  March 1, 2012

    Thanks, Gary. This question doesn’t pertain to this article in particular, but it’s something I was wondering about, so I thought I would ask. The verse in Phillipians 2:11 about every tongue confessing Christ is often used to support Universal Reconciliation. I had always thought it was a strong proof text. But the other day I came across a verse–Romans 14:11-12–that seems to say the same thing, but without implying salvation for all who confess. “For it is written, As I live…every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.” What are your thoughts about this? Peace.

25. 

    Gary

     /  March 1, 2012

    We must always be mindful of the fact that scripture will always support scripture. They can never contradict:

    “For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.” (Isa 28:10)

    No prophecy of scripture is its own interpretation; therefore, one verse will not always tell the full story. But when we compare like scriptures we have a better chance of understanding what the Spirit is saying. In his Twelve God-Given Truths article Ray Smith provides a great example of how to apply the principle of comparing spiritual with spiritual (See Truth #7)
    http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/2010/04/twelve-god-given-truths-to-understand-his-word/.

    One way to practice good study habits for yourself is to plug certain keywords that are common to like passages into any search engine. In this case, Php 2:10-11 and Rom 14:11-12 both have certain words in common: KNEE, BOW, TONGUE, CONFESS. You may be surprised at what else you might find:

    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt CONFESS with thy MOUTH [aka TONGUE] the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the MOUTH CONFESSion is made unto salvation.