The following email came from an individual who thinks so:

 

Hell in the Old Testament:

 

Deut. 32:22

2 Sam. 22:6

Job 11:8

Ps. 9:17, 16:10, 18:5, 55:15, 86:13, 116:3, 139:8

Proverbs. 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11, 15:24, 23:14, 27:20

Isaiah 5:14

Isaiah 14:9

 

Trinity and deity:

1 John 5:7-8

John:1:1, 1:10, 1:14

Isaiah 9:6-7

 

But, what's the difference if everyone is going to heaven?  Everyone is saved whether they want to be or not.  And Jesus died for nothing.

 

TRINITY: First I will briefly address the passage (I John 5:7,8) you quoted on the "trinity." I don't know what version of the Bible you normally read, but my Bible has a footnote to this passage, which reads as follows:

 

*5:7 NU, M omit the words from in heaven (v. 7) through on earth (v. 8).

 

In other words, the most reliable Greek manuscripts would render this

passage as such:

 

"For there are three that give witness - the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three have the same purport." (Weymouth's New Testament)

 

The verse we read about there being "three in heaven..." was inserted into Jerome's Latin Vulgate (by the authority of the Roman Catholic Church) in order to lend support to the non-biblical doctrine of the trinity. This doctrine cannot be conclusively supported anywhere else in Scripture, and God always confirms His Word in the mouths of two or three witnesses (see Deuteronomy 17:6; II Corinthians 1:13).

 

DEITY: I'm not sure why you were compelled to quote these passages which affirm the deity of Christ, but I am not in disagreement with you about this. Unlike man, who was created from the dust of the earth (Genesis 2:7), Christ was born of the Spirit, which makes Him of the same substance as His Father (John 3:31; 8:23).

 

HELL IN THE OLD TESTAMENT: First of all, I hope you understand that the Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew. Because most Americans cannot read or understand Hebrew, we have to rely upon English translations. (Thankfully, we have concordances, dictionaries, and other reference materials from which we can gain insight.) And despite what we are continuously being taught from our pulpits, there is not one English translation of the Scriptures that is "perfect." This can not only easily be proven, but quite to the contrary, it can be clearly shown that in many cases our modern translations are very misleading. [Evidence of deceit in the KJV can be seen in the article: O Hell, Where is Thy Victory?]

You listed 19 passages from the Old Testament that speak of hell. Like I already pointed out in point #7 in my "Top Ten List," the word "hell" was translated from the Hebrew word SHEOL 31 times (KJV). But, this same Hebrew word SHEOL was also rendered by the word "grave" 31 times, and by the word "pit" 3 times. Why all the inconsistencies?

 

Let me reiterate point #6 on the list by once again defining the word HELL:

 

The "hell" as the English used it in everyday life in the 1600's:

Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]"

 

The "hell" of the 21st Century:

The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."

 

Do you believe that these two definitions of "hell" have anything whatsoever in common with each other? Then how is it even in the realm of possibility that the Christian definition of hell today can be a translation for a word that is also to this day, translated three times as pit, and thirty-one times as grave? There is NO Scriptural or rational reason for translating the Hebrew word SHEOL into the English word "hell" at all—NONE! And there surely is no reason to use the word HELL in light of the fact that the Christian church has grossly perverted beyond recognition the Old English meaning of this word over the past four centuries. Remember Christ's warning: "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy." (Luke 12:1)

 

[If you desire to "study to shew thyself approved" concerning this subject, then see Appendix 3.]     

 

YOUR QUESTION: "But, what's the difference if everyone is going to heaven?  Everyone is saved whether they want to be or not.  And Jesus died for nothing."

 

"But, what's the difference if everyone is going to heaven?" 

 

First of all, it should be understood that nobody goes to heaven (or hell) at the point of death. Listen carefully to what Jesus has to say about it:

 

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." (John 3:13 - NKJV)

When you die, you die! Of course, orthodox Christianity denies this truth (Ye shall NOT surely die..."). Death is likened unto "sleep" by numerous passages in the Bible. [For a partial list, please refer to my Statement of Faith on the subject of Death.] Again, please pay close attention to the words of our Lord:

 

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which ALL who are IN THE GRAVES will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done GOOD, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done EVIL, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28,29 - NKJV)

 

Please note that, contrary to orthodox church doctrine, at the time of the resurrection, those who had previously done good were still in their graves, and NOT in heaven. And please keep in mind that there are TWO resurrections: one to life with Christ in His Kingdom, and another to the Great White Throne/Lake of Fire/Second Death, Judgment (where the individual will indeed suffer loss, but be saved - I Corinthians 3:15).

 

So what's the difference? There's a BIG difference! The ones who take part in the second resurrection to Judgment and Condemnation will be deprived of taking part in God's glorious Kingdom Age that is yet to come. I submit to you that this will indeed be a great loss in which to suffer. [Of course, I am aware that orthodox Christianity does not teach these truths.]

"Everyone is saved whether they want to be or not." 

 

If hell were really true, then can you name one person who would not want to be saved, but would rather be tortured in literal hellfire for ever and ever? I sure wouldn't want to run into that individual in a dark alley somewhere.

 

"And Jesus died for nothing."

 

Let's see, now. Mankind was hopelessly lost and in need of a Savior. [Man was not lost in the sense that he was destined to enter a mythical place called "hell" to be endlessly and mercilessly tormented. Instead, he was lost in the sense that the power of the grave and the finality of death proved to be too huge of an obstacle for him to overcome: "The wages of sin is death."] Our Lord Jesus provided that provision for mankind by conquering both sin and death. And you claim that He died for nothing??

"But now Christ is risen from the DEAD, and has become the firstfruits of those who have FALLEN ASLEEP (once again: death = an unconscious state of rest, or sleep). For since by man (Adam) came death, by Man (Christ Jesus) also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam ALL DIE (not tortured in hell), even so in Christ ALL SHALL BE MADE ALIVE." (I Corinthians 15:22 - NKJV)

 

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:17 - NKJV)

 

Despite this clear declaration from John's gospel (which, as I am sure you well know, means GOOD news), most Christians believe, thanks largely to doctrines of demons and the commandments of men, that God will indeed "condemn the world." And there is nothing "good" about that news.

 

The apostle Paul tells us that God is working "ALL THINGS according to the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11). And what is God's will concerning man? Peter tells us that He is "not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance" (II Peter 3:9). [See also I Timothy 2:3-6.] Will all indeed come to repentance, which is God's will according to the Scriptures, or will many be lost forever?

 

"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the GLORY of God the Father." (Philippians 2:10,11 - NKJV)

 

"And in this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for ALL PEOPLE a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And He will destroy on this mountain the surface covering cast over ALL PEOPLE, and the veil that is spread over ALL NATIONS. He will swallow up death forever, and the LORD God will wipe away tears from ALL FACES. [This statement {see also Revelation 21:4} totally obliterates the doctrine of an eternal place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.] The rebuke of His people He will take away from ALL THE EARTH, for the LORD has spoken. And it will be said in that day: 'Behold, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.'" (Isaiah 25:6-9 - NKJV)

 

"ALL THE NATIONS that Thou hast made [Do you know of any nations that He has not made?] shall come and bow down before Thee, O Lord, and shall glorify Thy Name." (PSALM 86:9 - American Standard Version)

 

Seems pretty clear to me. I pray that God by His grace will also grant you the eyes to see and the ears to hear these marvelous truths.

 

May God be with you.

 

 

 

In my last 3 statements I was using sarcasm.  You believe Jesus is not God and not the second person of the Holy Trinity.  You're in good company with the Mormons who believe he is the spirit brother of Lucifer before he became Satan.  The Jehovah Witnesses who believe he is the Archangel Michael.  These as you know, are cults and they all believe Jesus isn't God.  I believe the Bible.  I prefer the King James Version.  When we start getting into pulling verses out to prove OUR point, we miss Him.  Good luck with your new religion.  I have a personal relationship with God through His son and His death for me.  It would take God and not a man to die for my sins to mean anything.  I also believe he is coming back again to redeem the earth he purchased with His victory on the cross.  You should take a look at John Hagee's new book "Jerusalem Countdown" for more info on His soon return.  You can check it out from the Public Library as soon as it gets returned.  I plan on finishing it tonight and then lending it to a friend who will return it when he is done.

 

 

Greetings in the name of God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ!

 

You are swift to label me as a "cultist" just because I don't accept all of the views of orthodox Christianity. I guess I'm in good company then, for Christ Himself did not accept all of the views of the religious leaders of His day, the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus' words to the religious leaders of His day are still applicable to the religious leaders of our day as well (Ecclesiastes 1:9-11).  

 

 

The scribes and Pharisees were always quick to try and discredit the messenger by assaulting his character. This tactic can still frequently be seen in all areas of life, but especially in politics and religion. The best way to discredit someone is to demonize him, right? For once a person's reputation is shot in the eyes of the public, then very few will believe him.

 

Now, when did I ever make the statement that Jesus was not God? WHEN? You can read ALL of my articles and you will never find such a statement. You are putting words in my mouth. And in my statement of faith, I never say that I reject the doctrine of the trinity (do I?). Once again, you are guilty of putting words in my mouth. Instead, I clearly state that I do not support it. Why? Because, like I have already said, I believe it is VANITY for man in his finite, fallen condition to try and accurately explain the true nature of an infinite God. It would be similar to Charlie Brown trying to explain the exact nature of his creator, Charles Schultz. We are simply not provided enough information. And I refuse to support a doctrine that is based upon speculation.

 

For example, if you are somewhat familiar with quantum physics and string theory, then you are aware that a growing number of physicists now believe that there are eleven dimensions in the known universe. Assuming that this is true, then can you describe to me what the eleventh dimension is like? How about the eighth dimension? Or the ninth dimension? I didn't think so. Then neither can you describe to me what an infinite God is like, for He is totally beyond our comprehension. I prefer to keep it simple: "God is Love." [And Jesus Christ was the physical manifestation of that Love.]

 

Here is one logical reason for not supporting the doctrine of the trinity. The apostle Paul never opened any of his epistles to "God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost." If you wish to convince me that God is a "Trinity" consisting of three persons, then you should be prepared to give an answer (I Peter 3:15), and to "prove all things" (I Thessalonians 5:21) to me from the Scriptures [Nice try on the I John 5 passage]. Just because this is what the "church" teaches, and just because they sing songs to the "bless-ed trinity," is no longer a good enough reason for me to believe it. The evidence, in fact, would suggest contrary to the majority opinion.

 

 

"It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." -- Giordano Bruno (1548-1599) Italian philosopher

"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform."-- Mark Twain

I would encourage you to be diligent, like the Bereans, and "search the Scriptures daily to see if these things are (or are not) true" (Acts 17:11). At one time I believed just like you did, not because I searched things out to see if they were true, but because I put my faith in men, and in the fact that what they were teaching me was true. Turns out that there was a great deal they were teaching that wasn't true. 

 

 

 

A WORD TO THE WISE: Take it from someone who has "been there and done that." I spent many years studying eschatology. I read several books that were written by notable Christian authors like Hal Lindsey, Dave Hunt, J.R. Church, and the like. Fascinating stuff, to be sure! The problem, though, is that much of what these men were saying and writing about, years later turned out to be false. This closing segment provides an excellent example of how these men continue to twist the Scriptures.

 

God always confirms His word in the mouths of (at least) two witnesses, right? So we should be able to find another place in God's word where the dreaded Gog/Magog war is mentioned, right? Let's read about it:

 

 

This is the only other place (or witness) in the entire Bible where this Gog/Magog war is mentioned. Please note the timing of this event: when the thousand years are expired. In other words, this event, according to God (not man), takes place AFTER the "thousand years" kingdom. The only way you can turn this into an imminent event is to believe that we are currently living in the millennium (which, by the way, is what the Catholic Church teaches, claiming that their church is the manifestation of God's kingdom on earth).

 

Another good reason to reject what men are teaching concerning this "imminent threat" can be found in the very pages of the prophecy from which they so often quote:

 

"And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages. [The last time I checked, Israel was building a wall.] I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely [Is this an accurate description of the Jewish nation today??]; all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates." (Ezekiel 38:11 - KJV)

 

Now I guess it is possible that these men don't know how to cross-reference Scripture (by comparing spiritual things with spiritual - I Corinthians 2:13) in order to determine what the Spirit is clearly saying. But I don't believe that. I believe it is more than likely that they are knowingly pulling Scriptures out of context in order to promote fear for the sake of gaining proselytes (just like they continue to do with the doctrine of eternal torment in hell).

 

Once again, I give you the age-abiding words of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell [Greek: Gehenna] than yourselves." (Matthew 23:15 - KJV)

 

If I were you, I wouldn't put too much faith in anything that John Hagee has to say. Any man who teaches that our loving heavenly Father will torture His children (who, by the way, were ALL created "BY Him, and FOR Him" - Colossians 1:16) in literal hell-fire for all eternity, is NOT walking the narrow way which leads to life in Christ's kingdom, I will assure you.  

 

Come to think of it, neither is the vast majority that calls itself "Orthodox Christianity." Selah

May God be with you.

Gary

PS: And thank you for wishing me luck in my new "religion." A funny thing, though, has happened as a result of me finding this new "religion." Unlike you and many of your fellow "believers," who can probably walk into most any Christian church and feel right at home, I can now identify with the words of Christ: "who had nowhere to lay His head."